Oghenekevwe wrote:I believe it's up to us to ensure that we have some form of online presence and at least some of our languages should be represented online. It's going to take collective responsibility to ensure that more languages are covered online.
I would like to know how this goes.. hm...
Thanks for kind words :blush:
..
Jade.Xuereb wrote:It's surprising in the age we live in that Google aren't a bit more multicultural.
Yeah, I agree, but they are working on it, apparently
Meifeng, thank you for your thoughtful response! With lovely vocabulary too :):)
...
This study is an interesting perspective on the presence and influence of the internet languages, and the exclusion of most of the languages in the world on the internet.
http://labs.theguardian.com/digital-language-divide/.
The Google search engine offers information in only 130 languages, while there are around 6000 languages in the world. The lack of standardized orthography in many languages makes it hard to include them on the internet. In addition, different cultures use different online platforms for different purposes of communication. It's a way to tap into the cultural values of the society. For example while Koreans use Twitter to reply to each other, Germans apparently use more URLs and hashtags. This deepens the digital divide to a degree, but to me it is a representation of a cultural value and how certain nations see the internet and its use.
Mark Graham from the Oxford Internet Institute says, "Rich countries largely get to define themselves and poor countries largely get defined by others.", This refers to the inequality of information on the internet and the lack of input under-developed or developing countries have on it.
Although many people use the internet and we find as a great source of study and information, I myself don't find this state so threatening as I believe the real knowledge comes out of real, direct experience. Not that you can go back in history and verify what Henry the 8th was doing while ruling, but the real, live experience in the city of his rulership for example, is way more enriching than an article on the web. What I am trying to say is that, we may as well not take the internet so seriously. Nor should minorities offend themselves for not having their language present on the internet. I will never undermine the benefit from learning about a certain culture in live visits, but I don't mind being introduced to the language for the first time when being there on spot. However, it may be hard for indigenous and native people and speakers to have their information crossed, for themselves and foreigners, when their language is not present to the wider audience/public, on the internet.
Many points are mentioned in this article that I can not touch upon, so I suggest that you look into it, and would greatly appreciate if you tell me your opinion and viewpoint, on the thing I myself gave an opinion.
Thank you!
P.s. This will probably be among my last posts, as I am being called to attend somewhere and commit a bit more to something else, so I'll be needing more of my time. It was a true joy meeting you and exchanging thoughts and attitudes with you! I still want to hear and engage in this last idea/topic I opened. All the best to all of you! I really enjoyed talking to you all
Hey Jess! I switch to languages all the time, but it's not that I merge English and Macedonian, (topic was spanglish you say? :)) ) or am familiar with some expressions like that here. I am sure there must be some, as majority of Macedonians speak and use English frequently, but, wasn't able to find any examples online or in my brain. Interesting topic
Spanish and French I confuse aaalll the time. Especially when my level of Spanish is so basic, I often pop in a French "equivalent" here and there :)) so, yes it does happen to me a lot @Temitope and it bothers me a lot, urgh :smile:
Jess.PWinkler wrote:Mai wrote:Wow, wow! Thank you so much, so much! :):):)..
Here they are. I recorded 2, one with corrections and the other with all the text :)
Perfect Jess, you sound perfect, awesome, very grateful :+1:
Jess.PWinkler wrote:Mai wrote:Trabajo
Carolina escribe un correo electrónico (email) a su amiga acerca del trabajo:
"Hola Cristina, siento no haberte llamado por tanto tiempo. ¿Cómo estás? ¿Cómo está tu nuevo apartamento? He estado muy ocupada en el trabajo. Llego a la oficina a las 7 am y me voy alrededor de las 6:30 pm. Sólo tengo media hora para el almuerzo y un descanso de cinco minutos en la mañana y en la tarde. Estoy muy cansada cuando llego a casa así que sólo como, veo algo de televisión y me voy a la cama. En la oficina, estoy en el teléfono todo el día, escuchando las quejas de los clientes y entrándolas en nuestro sistema de computadoras. Al final del día tengo que escribir un resumen de todas las llamadas que recibí durante el día y darle a mi jefe un informe de las quejas que no se han resuelto todavía. No sé cuanto tiempo más pueda hacer esto. Necesito unas vacaciones, o mejor aún, ¡necesito otro trabajo! Te llamaré este fin de semana.
Carolina”
This is supposed to be beginner's text :) There was an audio recording of it on the page too, but I do mistakes anyhow. Feel free to correct or comment whatever if necessary
Couldn't use vocaroo on phone :(
My corrections (later I can record it):
Correo - practice RR a lot, you pronounce it like "coreo" instead of "correo"
Nuevo - maybe try to say "u" and "e" separately and then try to unite them, in spanish if you have 2 vowels together most of them will sound just like if they were alone (I'm sure your pronunciation has something to do with your french). But, there are 2 exceptions "que/qui" and "gue/gui"
6 - it sounds like "10 (diez)" o.o - seis (same as above)
Quejas - you said it like "Cuejas" it should be something like "kejas", you said "que" right after though :)
Las (de todas las llamadas) - I believe this one was because you hesitated
Han - you pronounced it like "jan" but that "h" is mute (most words when they start with "h", the "h" is mute) so it would be like "an"
Fin - you pronounced it like "fen" but it should be "fin" :)
And the hard one, there were some accents missing in some words, but that comes with practice :).... keep it going!!
Wow, wow! Thank you so much, so much! :):):)..
Yeah, definitely continuing while you don't feel like it anymore is not beneficial whatsoever, purpose of life is enjoyment, not burning yourself out for the purpose of reaching someone else's goals. I love languages, but since they are not my priority, I take language learning as a hobby far in the back, so I don't even organise my studying that much, I just take it on when I feel like listening to other languages and changing the focus in my brain, as it does make a switch, and when I need it, I go for studying. Learning languages is so important for the mental capacities and broadening perspectives, as well as re-establishing new mental pathways and hence refreshing your whole aura :)))
However, I didn't have the opportunity to choose when and how to study at the faculty of phylology, so it's important to incorporate diversity whenever we have to do something repeatedly. At least that is what I do/did.
leosmith wrote:You are mostly getting your reading skill checked, while I'm mostly getting my pronunciation/grammar/vocab checked. Nothing wrong with either of these; it's just the difference of whether your read a pre-made text or make something up spontaneously.
Yeah totally, I haven't arrived to that level yet :)
Thank you
Wow, Chinese was awesome! What is the translation Leo if you don't mind me asking?
My Spanish:
Trabajo
Carolina escribe un correo electrónico (email) a su amiga acerca del trabajo:
"Hola Cristina, siento no haberte llamado por tanto tiempo. ¿Cómo estás? ¿Cómo está tu nuevo apartamento? He estado muy ocupada en el trabajo. Llego a la oficina a las 7 am y me voy alrededor de las 6:30 pm. Sólo tengo media hora para el almuerzo y un descanso de cinco minutos en la mañana y en la tarde. Estoy muy cansada cuando llego a casa así que sólo como, veo algo de televisión y me voy a la cama. En la oficina, estoy en el teléfono todo el día, escuchando las quejas de los clientes y entrándolas en nuestro sistema de computadoras. Al final del día tengo que escribir un resumen de todas las llamadas que recibí durante el día y darle a mi jefe un informe de las quejas que no se han resuelto todavía. No sé cuanto tiempo más pueda hacer esto. Necesito unas vacaciones, o mejor aún, ¡necesito otro trabajo! Te llamaré este fin de semana.
Carolina”
This is supposed to be beginner's text :) There was an audio recording of it on the page too, but I do mistakes anyhow. Feel free to correct or comment whatever if necessary
Couldn't use vocaroo on phone :(
Hi! I haven't had that experience, as I always try to keep myself away from embarrassement :))) how brave! :)))
But I did use to hold Skype lessons for a Macedonian guy/gentleman living in the UK and who had this exact problem. He wanted to exercise solely on conversation/expression and pronunciation. I remember he was quite intelligent and knowledgeable, however not feeling confident at all in speaking. He had issues just like the ones you mention, and I lent him a hand for that. I really found British people to be very arrogant and pretentious from what he was sharing with me, the way they acted with him and towards his accent. Not really patient or understanding, why eventually he needed classes. I did however stressed our classes mostly on confidence, as he had all the grammar and vocabulary, just really didn't know how to blend that all together, confidently construct sentences and use his brain in HIS favor. However, as I work in the field of psychology and integration too, and from what I learned about him and his job, which was a lower class job in that society, I understood where his lack of confidence was also coming from, so I just focused on that and raising his will power too, besides his confidence in knowing and doing more.
What I am saying is, bare in mind that, whenever a person treats you or your knowledge that way, it is often due to YOUR OWN approach to your own level of knowledge/familiarity with and towards the language, which makes us sound the way we do. Our own estimation is not always objective, and if you approach the conversation or encounter with fear and doubt, and in the end not willing to have it or engage in it, your accent or whatever you know about, will be out of place (crappy, sorry for the expression) and people will see /sense that and react accordingly/appropriately. You have to be clear about your level and not get so attached to how you look or sound, but that you're in the process of learning, which kind of opens up vulnerability and not all people are tolerable towards that. But in the end, you don't need people like that ;)
So, if you feel you're not ready deep down, even on a subconscious level (that you need to get aware of), you'll always get the appropriate reaction, to make you aware you don't feel ready. People will always show you lack of tolerance, and if you find it rude or not compassionate or whatever, you can always change the conversation partner, you don't need those people. Meantime, you can take further expected steps to feel more confident when speaking, but for yourself, not for the sake of looking or sounding good in people's eyes/ears. Because you know you just want to feel more confident and consequently, sound better.
That's what I have to/would say
I usually get it from written conversations, I like dialogue. I get engaged in group online conversations and note down their speeches and words I am unfamiliar with. Books amaze me to, so that too, but I agree that rarely do we need for a colloquial conversation the vocabulary used in a book for example. Depends of the genre of book though right. But I do prefer a sort of teacher and a live conversation so I can engage, learn and practice at the same time. But reading news and forums like these inspire me too and I often note down vocabulary through this too. Listening is not my biggest strength when I am trying to learn new words :))
Wow, amazing! Never thought of this. The first thought was, What is this girl talking about, then I read what you wrote and the article itself and sounds pretty cool, and useful too! I agree totally, on the fact that no matter whatever level you are at, you can participate and actually write down potential dialogues with the level your are actually at! So cool, and entertaining too. Can be really fun for students.
Bravo for the post! Love it
meifeng wrote:The way my Vietnamese teacher taught was just to pronounce words, and make us repeat the words after him.
Haha, yeah, that's how they/we do it too, that's what I wanted to know... It's sometimes too hard to transmit it to students, and many times irrelevant
I forgot to post the official website, in case some of you want/need to dive deeper
http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/
Thanks all, keep posting...
Do you know about the IPA, the International Phonetic Alphabet? It is an alphabet used to transcribe the phonetics of words, in order for there to be common letters and symbols to write down the pronunciation of words, usually for languages whose words are read/pronounced differently than they are spelled/written, i.e. languages that have reading/pronunciation rules.
I remember getting introduced to this alphabet very early in childhood when I started learning English with my aunt (she is an English teacher). She introduced me to it gradually and I think I remember it by heart now. When I was holding private lessons of English and French myself, I remember using it and explaining it to my students. I now wonder though, since it is international, did your teachers use it with you while studying other languages? Like for Korean for example, or Japanese, or all others that you are/have been studying? Is it the same alphabet used there to transcribe the phonetics of words for westerners?
This tutorial/lesson is a great explanation of the alphabet, in case you don't know what it is, or have forgotten, like myself:
My aunt and I, we used to use different brackets though for indicating the phonetic transcription ( {} ), while the common ones are ( // ) according to this video. I don't think that is very relevant, but...
So, do you know about it? Have you been introduced to it already? Do you find it helpful? Teachers need to know it, it helps students, and almost all online dictionaries use it.
Cheers!
Yeah, the language from Avatar the movie :))) if there is anyone like that speaking it and could take me to their places and world :)))
meifeng wrote:Interesting article, although given Germany's rise in the last couple of decades, I wonder if there will be a reassessment of the German language. I personally don't think German sounds "ugly", but sometimes, it sounds a bit harsher, just because it has more guttural sounds.
Exactly! Good point
I like German now
Mel.Palogan wrote:I love the culture and food but I'm not a fan of how the Thai language sounds. Maybe I'm just ignorant idk
Why don't you like how it sounds? Have you asked yourself? Why would you consider yourself ignorant on that?
Haha, by shape of mouth you mean how speaking it shapes my mouth or? :)) Interesting :)
Definitely accent and the collective tone, sometimes the unknown itself attracts me, so I could like and embark on learning whatever language. Just the fact it sounds totally foreign is intriguing to me.
Otherwise, I'm an actress at heart so what I perceive is accompanied body language and the sound/collective tone, I feel new words stimulate my brain and create new neural pathways, and what attracts me is what it does to my brain :))
In addition, and easy grammar and a lovely country that I would visit and have a use of knowing the language, is what would make me learn and enjoy it
TemitopeAkinyede wrote:The fact that someone doesn’t understand a language doesn’t make it ugly. In these cases,it comes to me as “funny” not ugly.
It's not ugly because I don't understand it, it's ugly because if you have been feeding yourself with beautiful harmonious sounds and visuals for let's say 2 hours, and then hear Albanian for example, well, see how you feel. There's nothing wrong finding something even disgusting to your ear or eyes, it just means its visual or acoustic is not appealing to you. I can even make faces, and I allow myself, because I want to know what attracts me and what not and express the emotion rather than suppress it
dragonsky wrote:Hmm..maybe the accent? I think people judge the language based on how the language sounds, so if people speak a certain language in a certain accent or maybe if they talk too loud people would falsely think the language is ugly?
Yeah, definitely, I agree with this
And in addition, it's sometimes the same as going to a concert of a musician you haven't listened to before, and you find the melodies out of harmony or order, and your ear can simply be fed up with it. That's how I see it. But you have to know what you like, in order to perceive and refute what you dislike. Or vice versa
But yeah from another standpoint, no language is ugly, you can find it intriguing maybe
And I definitely think how the native speakers sound speaking it makes a lot of difference to your ear
Hm
Oghenekevwe wrote:I haven't found any language to be ugly yet and I don't think I ever will. In Nigeria here, I do find the Yoruba language a bit annoying not cos of the language itself but the way it is spoken by most people. They tend to be aggressive and yell a lot. But this doesn't make the language ugly to me. I'd say most people tend to dislike what they don't understand and I think that comes to play with those who would think a certain language is "ugly". For me, I think saying a language is ugly is same as looking at a person and calling them ugly.
Hey Oghe (Can I shorten your name to Oghe?), thank you for your answer/input.
Well I personally believe there are ugly people, but that doesn't make them less valuable. If you put the worth into physicality, then you will convince yourself there is no beautiful pretty or ugly, because you're afraid to evaluate your own beauty :) on objective standards let's say. But that's another thing.
I do agree that the way people speak, pronounce their language is what can make the language sound ugly (or let's say not pretty, what came to me too, more of an euphemism :)) ), not the language itself. But I do believe also the language is created where the people called for it, so it correlates. I definitely think I define whether a language is pretty or sounds ugly to me because of how the people speak it.
Thank you for your answer Taylor!
Do you have languages that sound repelling to you and would never learn? What do you think makes a language ugly? Do you think it is based on facts and science or is it entirely subjective which languages appeal to us and which ones we don't like at all?
This article says there's not enough evidence why we consider some languages ugly. Many professors believe it is entirely based on facts and the overall sounding of the language.
https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/jul/17/what-makes-a-language-attractive
I believe that we all have a distinct taste that sometimes can't be explained in words. But I do agree that depending on the value we give a certain culture or society, we can be more or less attracted to its language. Like for example Chinese and its growing use and the fact that knowing Chinese now offers more job opportunities, makes it more alluring. What do you think of that?
It is also claimed that the similarity with your native tongue is what makes one language appealing or not. I also believe it is due to the phonetic constructions. Like for example when a language contains words that comprise more than 3 consonants piled next to each other, that doesn't sound very melodic or harmonic, so it can push us away from the language. An example of a German word like that is given in the article.
I always found German repelling and my neighboring language Albanian. I find the second one almost disgusting, but I believe it is mainly because of how its speakers use it and how they sound to me ears when they do (aggressive). I am sure my personal aversion towards the people/community is greatly influencing my viewpoint too. Maybe aversion is a harsh word to use here, but maybe it is not either.
Roman emperor Charles V once said: “I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.”
However, many people adore the German language.
What is your stance on this? What makes a language ugly to you and why wouldn't you learn it?
Yes, it's the same example as learned vs learnt. They are the past simple form of the same infinitive verb. The only difference is if it is British English, or American English. The ones ending on "t", are usually the British version.
Yeah, I prefer mimicking too, but they are both useful for different purposes, and you explained them both really well. I find shadowing to help me with synchronisation, but I do miss hearing my own voice, pronunciation and evaluating it. But synchronising in shadowing also gives a glimpse into what you are doing, but has a different purpose I believe. I believe shadowing to be more useful at the beginning of my course/self-study, although Alexander considers it to be an advanced learning technique.
leosmith wrote:Good question. Prof. Arguelles shadowing has no delay; you are supposed to speak at the same time as the recording. By mimicking do you mean waiting until the sentence is completely or partially finished before repeating? I much prefer waiting until after the sentence is over before I repeat; that's one thing I always do with Pimsleur.
Yes, that's what I mean. Yeah, I guess both can be combined, depending on what you prefer, repeating instantly or understanding a bit then mimicking. I guess it also depends on the level of knowledge of the language and what you feel more comfortable with.
I have no idea, that's why I ask for opinions
Thanks!
I read here several days ago about shadowing vs. mimicking, so I figured out it would be useful to explore it a bit.
Shadowing is considered to be an advanced technique of language learning invented by an American professor, Alexander Arguelles, some of you have probably heard of it/him. It is a practice of listening to a speech/podcasts/audio recording and within a very short delay, you repeat the same words, letting yourself acquire the intonation and cadence of the speaker's voice. Since it asks for lots of confidence (speaking loud and clear) and focuses on articulation and pronunciation, it is helpful to the brain that is meanwhile creating new neural pathways for your language acquisition. It improves our short-term memory, but since you listen and speak almost instantaneously, you don't really think and speak.
You can start shadowing by choosing a recording, if you're doing it alone, listening (and reading the script) several times, but noting down vocabulary is not allowed at the beginning, as your focus should be on actually understanding the context and general content of the text and rather on the sounds and cadences of the speech. Shadowing helps improve pronunciation and fluency, but it is not recommended for everyone. It also helps regain intonation of your previously learnt language, if other languages interfere in your language-learning practice.
It is considered to be very helpful when we temporarily lack conversation practice, but conversing is always a better learning technique. Otherwise, before you start conversing, it is a powerful tool to gain confidence and train your speaking apparatus.
I think that the difference between shadowing and mimicking is that in shadowing, the delay of repeating is shorter. What do you think of that? Is shadowing a good technique for language learning? When should we start with it? And which one do you think is better: shadowing or mimicking, and can we put both in the same basket anyway?
Thank you!
Thank you Leo! Great observation, and post
Yeah we keep acquiring new information and our potential is limitless, but thankfully we forget, so :))) I agree with most of the comments, and yeah, the higher the level of knowledge the less possibilities there are that you will forget it. The folder is simply bigger, it takes up more memory and it maybe takes death to forget it.
I am currently not using French for example that frequently, but I never forget it, whenever I go back to it, it is pretty easy to recall, I just need the flow of conversation to begin to open up the folder and let it drip. But I studied it profoundly, so it's very much engrained in my conscious and subconscious and therefore possibilities to forget it are very meagre.
You might as well try to accept your "deficiency" and see the uniqueness and positive intention behind it and I guarantee you, as soon as you see the beauty in your pronunciation and own ways of being, you will start sounding like native speakers, or even better.
Leo said: "Otherwise, when you start reading, even if it's silent, you will be repeating and practicing incorrect pronunciation, and these errors will fossilize and be hard to fix with time."
I agree with this so much! I have experienced fossilizing of wrong pronunciation and it is so hard to eradicate after. We all have I assume. So I totally adhere to the practice of taking and learning it slowly but correctly, than moving swiftly but rather incorrectly.
I would learn Indonesian next.
I am vegan too and I just researched the MIND diet. I agree with some of it, except the inclusion of animal products and wine. I believe alcohol to be another farce, fabrication and propaganda. I am alcohol and sugar free for such a long time and I have never felt healthier, and my mind and intelligence are on fire! :))) If I want them to be :) I believe nuts and fruits to be the best choice for the mind and mental power, together with a whole food based diet. But I believe the best for the brain is to, instead of using this construction :))) :
"The MIND diet combines the DASH and Mediterranean diets to create a diet aimed at reducing the risk of dementia and the decline in brain health that people often experience as they age."
To say:
".. aimed at boosting one's mental health and potential, maintaining and expanding it."
Positive focus does way more wonders for the brain/mind than any food! :))) Sounds way more promising and many times people that suffer from mental illnesses, need just that. But an honest, pure positive focus. Exposure to the sun is also very important, and since all food comes out of the sun, it is our primary food. It affects our pineal gland and feeds us with positive emotions and state of mind, something even more relevant to the time when we're eating, than what we eat sometimes. (Our primary food is breathing btw, but ok :))) )
I also do intermittent fasting, and many times OMAD fasting, but I have been doing this even before finding out there were terms for that. Intuitive eating is healthy to/for me, and it usually makes me eat all meals within 6 hours, the rest of the day I just work, create, exercise, and similar. It's how I like it, I don't like spending too much time on eating, neither feeling too full or incapable of moving. I have been experimenting with my diet and body for such a long time, have been feeling really bad, that I found exercise and activity to be even more important than diet. But that's another thing.
My brother's obese wife is on KETO diet and she says she had never felt better. But given she has been obese for her entire life, this is really a huge step for her. However, I believe all meat diets to be another propaganda and fabrication, aiming to make you more dependent. But yeah, I know vegan diet will never make me go to a doctor and I don't like to be dependent and fall under authority, (since authority nowadays is rather an unhealthy authority), so i try to avoid all processed food, or at least food that makes me feel bad. Observation of the body is key, 3 hours after a simple meal of one to two ingredients, will tell you how your body/mind reacts to THAT exact food and up to you to choose if you stick to it next time, or let go of it.
leosmith wrote:Mai wrote:There is also a division into auditory, visual and/or kinetic learners -https://blog.thelinguist.com/are-there-different-types-of-language-learners.
I find it also valuable and trustworthy.
Are you saying you find Steve Kaufmann's article that you linked to valuable and trustworthy? Because as he says in the article, he doesn't believe in these different types of learners. If that's the case I agree with you. They have done several studies to try to prove learner types exist, but failed.
Yeah I guess yes, it's not that one person belongs to one category only. We are multiple, but I do believe there are certain skills that you were designed to do better than others. Like being more auditory than visual, or the other way around.
TemitopeAkinyede wrote:Would you be surprised if i told you some learners actually belong to multiple categories? Like some possess fractures of two or more categories.
Yeah! Totally! That was also said in the articles, and I relate to that too totally. I am an enthusiast AND a bilingual.
leosmith wrote:Mai wrote:I never undermined/minimised your effort! But what do you think, what makes you interested in it? Why aren't we all like that, all of us that work hard? Don't you think it's your brain capable and intended to do that?You minimized our efforts when you said that our brains are designed differently. That's not it. We just work harder at languages. Yes we are more experienced and we really know what we're doing. But time on task is the most important factor. If everyone worked as hard as we do, you wouldn't see vast differences in success levels, and discussions such as this wouldn't take place. There is no language learning "gift".
There may be no gift, but there is desire, and it's YOUR choice to work, as much as you do. So that means there's intention and will, not everyone has that, and those reasons come out of alignment with ones desires and brain, what the brain and body finds intriguing and challenging. That's what I think and meant.
leosmith wrote:That's certainly not true in my case. Generally speaking, we are savvy, experienced learners who work really hard.Mai wrote:I really believe some people's brains are designed to hold more languages at one time.
I never undermined/minimised your effort! But what do you think, what makes you interested in it? Why aren't we all like that, all of us that work hard? Don't you think it's your brain capable and intended to do that?
Hi!
According to a few articles I was just reading and what I myself concluded, there are types of language learners and many have tried categorising them/us! We can be categorised according to our personal interests, what motivates one from another, and the pace and dedication each one of us undertakes when learning a new language. I liked this categorisation, although there are many personal and/or biased, yet founded viewpoints and categorisations out there! This one divides us into 6 categories (https://www.linguacore.com/blog/6-types-of-language-learner-1/ ):
1. Language Enthusiast
2. Language Learner
3. Bilingual also Monolingual, Trilingual, Quadrilingual, etc.)
4. Linguist
5. Polyglot
6. Hyperpolyglot
A language enthusiast is someone who apparently loves (learning) languages, but is not necessarily a language learner! It means he/she can have a very basic knowledge of multiple languages, count to ten, have basic vocabulary, eager to learn, but have not or is not necessarily learning those languages. I fall into that category often! It gives an allegory of sport fans who don't necessarily need to be sports people. This is a categorisation based on one's motivations and skills.
There is also a division into auditory, visual and/or kinetic learners -
https://blog.thelinguist.com/are-there-different-types-of-language-learners.
I find it also valuable and trustworthy.
And in this third article, I find the writer dividing them into personalities more than into languages learners, but that's just my viewpoint:
https://www.gonaturalenglish.com/the-5-different-types-of-language-learners/
What do you think? Which category do you fall into? And what categorisation do you find more reliable and support more?
I was learning English and French simultaneously, and it's definitely better when the two languages have nothing in common. Otherwise, patience and groundedness are key factors to success when embarking on such a journey. I really believe some people's brains are designed to hold more languages at one time. They can somehow split their consciousness and make one learn one language, other aspect within them another, etc :))
What does MVP stand for btw?
Oh! Omg :)))
Ok, seems effective :)))
:wave:
I definitely choose 1 year in the country as you can always dig out books that will help you around the grammar, but it is way more motivational and thriving, since you don't even have a choice to think twice and hesitate, you just have to learn it if you want to blend easier. And it's a great challenge for some of us that love learning languages. I find that the whole setting and environment is a great boost too. Hearing it all the time is so helpful and it adjusts your brain to receive it more easily. You can also always hire a private teacher or a language exchange practitioner and improve and accelerate your language learning process.
Regarding the other thing you mentioned, I think a student can sound "unnatural" due to the teacher that is teaching and the techniques he/she is using to transfer the knowledge. Some teachers are really dull and untalented/unmotivated and/or teach mechanically, not even enjoying what they're doing, so it's expected and normal that the "product" sounds "unnatural". But in a group, a teacher can't really focus on individuals so it's often normal that the teaching takes this course.
The books aren't the enemy, the way we approach books and the activity we're undertaking is/can be. Books ARE designed to keep you motivated, amused, concentrated. That's what I believe.
Great topic really! Great alternatives
Thank you for your answers!
Toilet paper is a useful word @meifeng! May be of use knowing it in lots of language :)) so, what did you find out? How is it called in the languages you're learning?
Yeah I guess we're definitely language learning junkies! :))) or sometimes just a small obsession at the beginning :):):)
[quote name="Mel.Palogan"]
I noticed that my speaking improved when I had to answer a lot How and Why questions. I guess it forced me to use the little vocab and grammar rules that I know and had to make do with them to justify and explain my reasoning for various topics. I taught English to foreigners and they also found it very useful.
[quote]
Ah, awesome! I like questions while learning a language too, though super hard! I mean, I believe answering How and Why are pretty advanced levels of familiarity. I always wanted filling in gaps, spelling exercises (dictation), anything that had something to do with writing, more so than listening or talking.
Haha, thank you for you answer!
When do you consider yourself a language-learning nerd? Do you have your MP3 player filled with podcasts in foreign languages instead of music? Or more apps on the phone for language learning than social media apps let's say? :)) Have you made a specially decorated case for your dictionaries, textbooks, grammar books that you consult very often? Do you read the manuals of your new products in all the languages available? I do! :)) Do you try to decipher them and spend hours noting down words and looking for pronunciation? Guilty! :)))
I also switch languages when I am taking notes or writing down translations
What is a sign to you of becoming a total language learning nerd? Do you catch yourself spending a lot of time focusing on language learning and grasping new languages? How much time do we spend on this forum for example? :)))
I totally relate to what @meifeng said and how he put it. I also love Leo's approach, as he always dives deeper and expands on the meaning of things, in order to learn to be more precise and get to know each other better. It is a very intellectual approach though and can often be mentally draining to split the aspects into so many pieces, because it is also true that in the end the act itself or the desire to speak or write let's say, is the same whether it's a simple, colloquial conversation or an intense and "camplicated" one (complicated being so subjective to reflect upon).
I say this because initially I believe it also comes from one's own individual innate talent. If you prefer reading and are more visual than auditory let's say, like meifeng said, then you are more of a writer simply. Then there are people that are born to be motivational speakers, have awesome voices, and are endowed with all these gifts, just to hear them speak and can focus easily/love hearing others speak too. So it's all about the innate gift too, to me. The preference actually IS an indicator of that. And there is a technique and method, which is super easy actually, that will help you be more at ease and more proficient in what you like doing LESS, of these. So if you ever find yourself in the need to develop a certain skill you're not so fond of, while you like the opposite one of it better, the advice is to let yourself greatly, consistently and pationately express in the method you LOVE/PREFER doing, get proficient in that, and then the other aspect will start finding it easy and pleasurable to express itself when going away with the opposite. If you prefer speaking and listening, (it also definitely depends on the level of conversation you want to have in your target language), express and develop upon those skills, and you will catch yourself enjoying writing at one point. Just because you've become so good at what you love doing, which is speaking and listening, that now you simply have another challenge to take on.
I really believe it's connected to the innate talent and desires too, and I just thought of slipping this technique in, since i find it relatable and pretty helpful.
I am myself totally like meifeng and wouldn't have said it better.
Sorry for the long post, if it bothers anyone :)
I usually check online free courses and lessons at the beginning, just to get more familiar with the language. I also look for online courses with discounts on websites for group discounts, then I might compare some prices, and If I find it objective and reasonable, I enroll at face -to-face courses. I also prefer group courses over private sessions, unless I need an intensive approach. I love working alone, but in a group, surrounded by people, so I usually lose motivation when doing everything by myself.
Watching movies in your target language is very useful, but only if done properly. There are two ways you can approach any material for self-teaching. You can follow it passively, or engage actively. For example watching a whole movie in one breath for the benefit of learning and understanding your new language more, is not going to be so useful, as we tend to slip into unconscious receptivity. It's very beneficial to split the film into segments of around 10 self-contained minutes let's say, and focus on each segment as much as you need. You can be a full beginner, or an advanced learner, but you need to devote time to it as much as you authentically need. Paying attention to one segment of 10 minutes, where you hear every word, look at the body language and every movement that goes along with certain phrases and messages, listen to every sentence as well as noticing the colloquial verbal and nonverbal communication, is active listening FOR THE PURPOSE of learning the language and way more useful, even if you get to analyze only 2 segments of the film that day, than playing the whole film and getting lost in the story. Choosing a movie you like, of a genre you like, is also relevant, as this active listening approach can be a bit boring and quickly draining if you don't at least enjoy the movie. Although at the same time, since you focus on learning and acquiring new words/sentences, any film and situations are beneficial to explore and learn the language from. So, pick the (right) film for you, equip yourself with its subtitles if you want to, divide it into segments and start your investigation. Note down at least 10-20 new words and 10 sentences from this segment, repeat them, mimic the body language and pronunciation, and you will never forget them, I assure you. Seeing the film one time is also not very beneficial when studying it and the language used. You need to review it and really have remember everything new.
Same techniques with any material. A song, an article, a book, I find it way more useful when I approach one segment thoroughly and actively, than when I go through the whole quickly and/or superficially.
What do you think about this? How do you approach watching a film for the benefit of learning a language? Do you use subtitles, or you prefer no subtitles from the very beginning?
Great topic!
I was studying French and English at the faculty of philology for interpretation and translation. My mother was shoving French into my psyche for a long time and my aunt, her twin sister, is an English teacher, so they allied and plotted to transform us all into them, so I just chose to release everything I am, conform to her beliefs, and study/do whatever she wants me to, until she releases resistance, understands we all have different path and desires, and quits that. I did like it, but would have never done that as my studies if I was allowed to choose and express what and who I am. So I am not longer studying them actively, I just enrich the vocabulary and repeat/remind myself of the grammar, if/when I need it.
Now I am learning Spanish and I recently started Arabic. I once also comprised Italian in my language learning practices. I chose Italian then because I had a friend there who I wanted to visit and it sounded great to me. Spanish I love because until today I have found out that I resonate a lot with Latin American folks, so would like to visit the place, mainly Argentina. I also want to take part in cinematic projects, so any language is good for me to know.
I chose Arabic because I love the mystery of the Arabic or Middle Eastern world. And because it is a great challenge, as it contains a script/alphabet, sounds and ways of communicating totally different than the languages I know. I just wanted to feel taking in a totally different personality.
But I didn't commit to it fully, as I didn't find any opportunities that support that initiative of mine.
Great topic!
Thank you meifeng, for your extensive and thorough reply! I appreciate it greatly, lots to learn from :)
An endangered language is a language whose number of native speakers decreases, and at this age of globalisation, neocolonialism and linguicide, that is happening at an accelerated rate. The language shift often occurs when the new generations do not learn their heritage language, but opt for languages that are rather associated with social and economic power, or are simply more widely spoken. There are precise levels of a language being considered endangered until it is extinct. The first one is when a language is considered vulnerable, i.e. most children speak the language, but it is forbidden in certain domains. This is an estimation from year 2018 on what are the most endangered languages today:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/endangered-languages-dead-listen-speakers-audio-belarusian-wiradjuri-cornish-a8268196.html
There many associations that work on preserving, revitalising and/or documenting them, like this one:
http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/.
However, the total number of endangered languages today is around 3000. There are around 6000 to 7000 languages spoken in the world today, and it is considered that by 2100, 50% to 90% of those will be extinct.
http://chartsbin.com/view/1339.
So, what are your thoughts on this? Do you prefer global language(s), or keeping the linguistic diversity as it is? I mean as language learners, we need languages to learn, but do we need languages that are in use or would you learn or have you ever learnt one that has been or is facing extinction?
Have you yourself ever experienced anything like this? Having your own language facing extinction?
What do you think about this subject?
Hey, yeah, using both hands for writing at the same time is definitely too much mental power, since you also concentrate on what you are writing, or other parts of the brain concentrate on thinking, constructing sentences, organising it, words, so it's definitely hard and quite impossible and even unhealthy for a human, in my opinion
Thank you for explaining that
wrote:I knew you would have an interesting opinion about that article and the topic in general :). Scientific American, is a magazine in the U.S., that has been bringing its readers unique insights about developments in science and technology for more than 170 years. My parents are both biologists so science has taken an important place in my life. As I thought of the idea of train my left hand by learning a language I looked for something that would support my impulse, that was when I found that article.
I thought the same about training my left hand and my left hemisphere as you, but now I'll research about the topic and then take a decision. Thank you for the article!
I forgot what I was going to write :))
Dealing with all quotation space, that btw quotes the whole thing, while I just wanted to quote her, maybe somebody would like to fix this
Ok, I didn't check where the info was coming from, I kinda had the vibe of it, and it came from a space of doubt, fear and denial, hence, not reliable and trustworthy :D
Weren't .org and .net sites worth listening to and learning from for real? I thought .com wasn't as reliable
Thank you too! <3 **
Listening to me has always been toughest, I guess I am more visual. Grammar has always been interesting to me, until you use it. Regarding what was/is most time consuming for me when learning a new language, it's applying all that I know into speaking and constructing sentences. The concept itself of time consuming always frightened me, so I never even try to speak until I am sure I can actually have a conversation. But listening has always been toughest, especially with French when native speakers speak very fast. The French grammar is really complicated, but once you master it, I love it.
Omg, such an awesome description! I totally understand this and it is so true!
I especially understand the unconscious competence, like for example when musicians, or dancers, real professional performers of any kind, simply play or dance but the whole memory is in their body and mental. That is how dancers can smile and act and feel like their consciousness is actually elsewhere, in joy and bliss for example, while their performance or body is extra strenuous, so it seems absolutely effortless! You just let the whole knowledge and practice take over you.
I love this categorisation. If I am taking on a new activity now, I usually start or try to start with the second already, conscious incompetence, since as adults I believe we make conscious decisions, so we already now where we are. And it's great to start by knowing you actually have zero knowledge about this, but let's try it! :)))
And in performance, or sports, the bow to unpredictability is also important I believe. You never quit, but you also never know what will turn out. It's super exciting, when you're doing what you genuinely love doing.
leosmith wrote:Not to me it doesn't. I intentionally study pronunciation when I learn languages, and I would find it inefficient, if not downright damaging not to use correct language.Vladyslava wrote:Does it make sense to train pronunciation without using real words of that language?
I agree with this too.
Oghenekevwe wrote:I didn't see this before and I must say it's really fascinating. What we did back in school was,take English words and just add some random words in front of it so it sounds very African. For example, "What did you eat" would be "Whata digu yugu etenge". It was so much fun back then.
Wow, amazing! :))
Vladyslava wrote:And that`s fascinating to see how people perceive your native language (in my case - Russian). But I don`t really imagine how to apply this into language learning. Does it make sense to train pronunciation without using real words of that language?
It does, for the accent. Maybe for the common or stereotyped attitude of the people too. But mostly for the accent. As I said, rather at the beginning. It's not part of usual language learning techniques, but can be used for acting and acquiring the accent.
There are some discussions here that might answer your questions
https://languagetools.io/forum/pp/6227.
https://languagetools.io/forum/pp/6610.
https://languagetools.io/forum/t/2181
With 5 hours a week, I would say you can attain a conversational level in 6 months to a year. It also depends what kind of conversations you are referring to and would like to have. Basic ones, chit-chatting, deep phylosophical questions, debate/argue :)) etc...
I created a topic once that included that
https://languagetools.io/forum/t/2153.
Feel free to comment if you have anything to say
In childhood, we had this language where you add "p" and the vowel used just before that, after each syllable. We called it the Parrot language, or parrotting. For example:
I didn't have lunch today.
You would say:
I-pa di-pi dnt he-pev la-panch to-po da-pay.
I just transliterated it in English for the first time, and you use the same sounding/vowels as without it, but we did this in Macedonian, my mother tongue, and given there are no reading rules in it, you read how you write, it was a bit easier. But I was myself very good in it, very quick and I loved transforming the words in that form quickly and bold. I am glad I am recalling it now. Otherwise, everyone knew this language, so it wasn't any secret language, but with specific friends, we always had some sort of signs/symbols to understand each other among people not as close to us. But we never invented a whole or partial language with vocabulary and all.
So good! I use tongue twisters for warm up for voice acting. Pronunciation and articulation is very important, we need to stretch those muscles beforehand. So cool, is there a way I can save this post? :)))
And yes I have beaten my lip and tongue doing it myself I am sure. :))
The Spanish was easy, the ones with "T" are easier as I can see
[/quote]
Yes! Right to left writing is something that worries me, I'm right handed. I thought that the best for me would be to try to learn the hebrew alphabet by writing the letters with my left hand ("Killing two birds with one stone") and then I found this:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-training-to-become-ambidextrous-improve-brain-function/
So, now I think that it might not be a good idea :(....
[/quote]
Hey Jess, this is very, VERY speculative. Alcohol, drugs, causes neural underdeveloppment and dysfunction, not whatever activity that you do with full consciousness, you can't just go dumb for exercising your left handwriting. It's same as if they were telling me "exercising your left leg and muscles, and aiming to create symmetry in your body, is going to cause neural damages". Anything that you do consciously, will make you start and STOP whenever the moment for that comes. And I didn't really understand this article, who declared it as a competition? That's just practice even in psychology to write down certain aspects of your self-exploration on paper, with your less dominant hand. In the context of the article, competition is there referred to as a negative phenomena/state, while it is actually very healthy, if it is approached healthily. Why would I make my own hands compete with each other, I'm doing it for myself, they are part of me and I wouldn't force it, as some mindsets in the past thought was beneficial. I didn't understand that part, of you find the need to clarify, please...
Otherwise, our left hand is connected to our right brain hemisphere (the intuitive, creative, feminine side), while our right hand is representing our left hemisphere (the logical, analytical, masculine side). So, consequentially, people that are leftists naturally, they won't conform to society and will be considered "mentally unstable" or whatever the labels used in the article itself are, but they can be and are great artists. Attention deficit and hyperactivity IS actually the irresistible desire and intention coming on this planet, to not do what others want you to do, and not being even able to. And it IS about being left, allowed and encouraged to do whatever that person is inclined to do and talented for.
This article explains some of it
https://tealswan.com/resources/articles/understanding-autism/
It has nothing to do with language-learning, but it can clarify some stuff to you maybe
Worrying is fine, I wouldn't tell you not to worry, but I am rather backing up my arguments, as reality is that if you DO worry, you should follow your instincts. Otherwise, if you approach competition and any training with love and understanding, patience and determination, nothing can go wrong. I find the article you shared very speculative and I wouldn't rely on it myself.
I would say there are advantages as well as disadvantages. Who would think of advantages though. But, there are. One I could think of now is that you don't confuse words for example with the other language of another alphabet/script that you know. Although, I read that learning Polish simultaneously with Russian, can make you confuse certain words and structures because they are similar, even though the alphabets do not match.
Otherwise, I've been learning English since very little, while my mother tongue is part of the Slavic languages (so Cyrillic alphabet). Since I was very little, way more flexible and receptive (I have a topic on why children absorb easier than adults), I don't even remember having any resistance towards it, or towards the idea of studying it. Maybe I wasn't even allowed to protest, but however it is, maybe because parallelly I was studying my own language at school, it didn't really represent any problem. School was boring this way or another, so you just accept what you're being given in this/that era.
I started Arabic recently, and I had few classes before I quit. And the reason for quitting was just that - symbols were way too hard to interpret and remember, they write from right to left too, found that also very difficult, (I was studying with a native Saudian Arabian , so he didn't introduce any other simpler way), and this task needed more of my attention and time, something I couldn't give at that time.
I understand you completely, and couldn't give a lot of tips myself, except not to place too high expectations, to take it step by step, and see where that takes you.
Good luck!
Organising your time is really not as difficult as people make it. You just really have to look at the day, and figure out how much time you are going to spend on all activities. Rest is dedication, to each one of those. And, REST, IS an activity too :))
The brain works perfectly when it knows what we're doing. So even when it is resting, it will put itself in a mode of resting and rest more efficiently. When we are working, same. When we are on a date for example, also, another personality/you. You just need to ask yourself, What are we doing now?, and hear what the inner voice has to say. Because honestly the more you are in tune with yourself, the more you can reprogram yourself and the more efficient you are! It's even superhuman what we can do when we listen to ourselves.
What most people do today, is they/we force them(our)selves. We make us go to work, mechanically, we brush our teeth, mechanically, we go grocery shopping, mechanically, we even make love mechanically, but I have noticed that even the world is not asking for that much now, the standards are lowered and I'm talking about the average citizen now, here. So it's one of the reasons why we craft beliefs about ourselves and the world where we "don't have enough time.. are not qualified for that... I am not ready for that.. I'm not good at that... I'm not good enough.." (Beliefs that usually all stem from childhood too) and our potential decreases, because what you see the majority do is what you eventually identify with. But if you zoom out, and meanwhile figure out what health is for you, you'll understand it's not even you organising your time, you'll understand you have never experienced freedom for example, you'll understand that you want to take your life into your own hands, etc etc...
And do you know how they say geniuses really didn't/don't spend that much time working? Einstein, Nikola Tesla, famous poets, male/female, no-one worked for more than 5 hours a day. Rest is meditation, and bringing ideas forth. And once you gather all of yourself, once you have made agreement inside yourself, in your mind/body, you finish with the activity you will undertake that moment, very, very quickly! For real, when the inside peace and pleasure propels us to work, we are quicker than the beam of light. At least it can feel that way. :))
This is a different way of seeing how to organise one's time, but once you program yourself, you need to be doing that.
If you for example have only an hour to study the language you want to learn, (a situation I read on the other topic here on organising one's time) or do whatever for that matter, you don't look at the rest of the day/hours, you really take one step forward first to start doing the activity. If ever an hour makes an issue for you, (you worry, you struggle..), you really need to be seeing at the first 5 minutes in front and know what you are going to do in those 5 minutes, that will make you learn the language for an hour. Just step by step, don't look to far, something I will explain a bit in details just now.
So, there is another aspect of self exploration, which helps tremendously.
We need to figure out how we see time. And when you do this, you need to feel how you feel about that, when you question this. So it's not a mental game where you rationalize your feelings towards time, but rather you ask, and you see/notice/observe the inner feelings and sensations that appear in/on your body regarding that. Your face can react, you gut can react, your stomach can react, your shoulders can rise in fight or flight for example, yiur whole body can change position, whatever it is, it is the most objective sign of how your subconscious/ yourself feels about that. And you just need to interpret that. If it is a negative stance, feeling, not really pleasant, then most probably you fear time for example, a belief that has been forged long time ago, (that for example, time is against us). Or you worry, also another way to stop yourself from succeeding (this is approached slightly different). And fearing anything, won't take you to collaborate with it right, so... And since the subconscious is what doesn't or does allow us to progress or organise, or it makes us procrastinate, because there are aspects in the subconscious we are not aware of, you will never succeed. Always trying, always struggling, not ever questioning, what it is inside me that prevents me to do this, what is it inside me that wants something else that I don't communicate with at all, and am not familiar with. And once you question, you listen :):):)
So I gave a bit of a mess of advices, suggestion and techniques, as well as some more information on why we find it difficult to organise our time. It's really about finding love for what you are about to do, programming yourself by letting the subconscious know that, in this hour, this is what we're doing, and then, dedication. While doing it, don't worry or think about the time, don't worry about other activities you are supposed to do in the day, be fully present, as if it was your last activity on planet Earth! :)) But, honestly, when the subconscious knows how much time you give it for this or that, it will stop at the exact time of completion/end, it will give you something, a reminder, a sign (to look at the clock maybe), that the time for that has passed. It is same for waking up. Many people don't use alarm clocks, yet are super attentive at work, punctual, and all of that. But this kind of trust in yourself, does need a little bit of attunement to oneself already, something I believe all of us here have.
I am sorry for the long post, I think it contains interesting info and will be interesting to read.
I included some of my own techniques and viewpoints/insights, as well as insights I have payed to know about ;) Otherwise, I would really like to know your ways of dealing with it, how do you see these techniques, what would you suggest, what would you correct, what you disagree with etc.
Good day!
Smartchiny wrote:Mai, I understand the questions part but what i meant was in regards to normal statements.
What are normal statements?
Ok, I just figured it out, the quotation marks are for that. I was only looking at reply and the other symbols
Ok, thank you
And I didn't quote again :)) ...
Smartchiny, can't quote on phone, did you mean habite-t-il ? This reverse order/place of words is used in French when there is a question to ask. You also say in English: Does he live? You change the place of the words, in difference to confirmative sentences. Is this what you meant?
Hi!
I like all responses and agree with most of it. I have used Duolingo for some time for Italian, didn't stick to it long, and I agree with what was being said above, that since it doesn't teach grammar rules, you can't really learn a language with it. As well as the fact that many formally certified language learners are not as good as their degree says it. I think Duolingo is easily approachable and many people love it because of that.
In addition, I need to say that even when you learn a language with a certified teacher, you do start by learning the terms for words like mother, father, son, instead of learning most common expressions. These are your own preferences, and you can always find a list of most common expressions used in daily life in your target language on the internet, but you won't learn the gender of mum, (if you encounter mum), or its plural version, or what is the gender of the noun "name", (since you're interested in "What is your name?"). Or have all question words enumerated, not just one (that is usually the order, when you reach the moment to read and construct sentences, or questions, you dive into the entire syntax and morphology analysis, something that Duolingo doesn't do, but getting familiar with only expressions, doesn't help either).
So I find the introduction of groups of nouns is good, before getting into sentences and using them. That is one of the orders when studying a language.
Hey Jess, I feel sometimes we get so out of tune with our bodies that we don't receive the message when enough is enough, for our mental and bodies. The only way to actually have the time for everything, is to practice a very healthy and intuitive lifestyle, where you follow your body and what it asks from you, stop when you feel like stopping with work, have rest, continue with something else, etc... You know when they say periodic meditation seances are essential/important, well that is it, when you feel just a bit tired, you don't force yourself, you stop, follow your joy, you study when you feel capable, you stop when you don't want to anymore, you start something else when you feel inspired, and etc... And, habits. You are getting your body and mind used to certain activities, and our bodies and minds love repetition, but in a positive context, when you feel safe practicing what you practice. Safe, satisfied and happy, so you can be effective.
We usually get tired but negatively tired in a way, not fulfilled, when we are doing things someone else imposed on us, not what we genuinely want to do, for ourselves.
I wanted to open a similar topic on organising your time, maybe I will, and expand more on it there.
Maybe you're right smartchiny, but might be like that for everything. While we learn, we absorb. When we "perform", we perform, we become
Interesting insight though I agree
Hey Ari, where do you live now?
Thank you
So, imrah, automatically, it does influence your personality. If language is a channel, it means it does influence. And language IS part of the customs and culture, dont you think so? Automatically, it's all connected
That's what I conclude from this at least
Yeah, probably not that much, but depends how much you dive into the language
And how solid your identity/personality/self concept is I assume :)
"Learn a new language and get a new soul." - Czech proverb
Have you ever noticed yourself changing your tone, approach, attitude when talking in another language than your own for example? Or if you are bilingual, does switching to another language changea your personality?
Or have you been told that you sound differently when speaking in another language?
I have been told about, and have noticed myself, the different vibe I embody when I speak in French, in comparison to the approach I take when speaking in English. And I have also noticed that the more I allow this switch to happen, and the more it intrigues me, it actually loosens up. I have also been told that I sound differently when speaking English vs. speaking French. I have noticed that my thoughts sometimes change too, depending on the language I am thinking in. (Though thinking in another language besides your own, is a bit advanced and I think rarely happens). Have you ever noticed that? What do you think it is due to?
The main difference is when I am communicating or trying to convey something in Macedonian. I have noticed that since I know the collective situation here and interests/topics, my intention when speaking changes. It can be a very dramatic change, or just a slight one. I believe it is due to what I am also receiving while communicating with native speakers or reading local news. Everyone leaves me a different impression, and inspires me on a different level, so I sometimes have different messages to cross when speaking different languages. I always felt kind of warm feeling when I am speaking in French, and it's not just because of the melodic sounds the language produces (depending for whose ear that is of course), but also because whenever I interact with French people, I get a different vibe that probably stays with me and within me without me being aware of it even!
These are all mild nuances now, but they used to be more obvious.
Have you noticed anything like that within yourself? Or been told maybe?
This is one of the suggestions too:
"...what is seen as a change in personality is most probably simply a shift in attitudes and behaviors that correspond to a shift in situation or context, independent of language."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/life-bilingual/201111/change-language-change-personality
Do you agree? And if you HAVE noticed anything similar, do you think these apparent switches are beneficial, or can harm us?
Hmm, [dobra nokj], haha I recorded it :)
Best way. Otherwise, you speak the way it is written, no complicated reading rules :)
Добра ноќ :)
All Slavic languages sound a bit the same specially on these basic expressions. But there ARE differences
This is the ad
https://vladi-webmarks.com/9-zabavni-nacini-za-brzo-izucavanje-na-angliskiot-jazik/?utm_campaignid=23842884104590535&utm_creative=23842884104580535.
It's in Macedonian, I assume you wouldn't understand anything, but wanted to share since even underneath it, there are Facebook comments from Macedonians confirming its great use and benefits. :))) But they all sound very rigid and like an ads themselves, I am sure they have either been payed to write testimonials or are bots :)
What do you think? In general. Do they ever annoy you or are you okay?
:)
These days I was bombarded by ads on quick language learning, and I figured out it must be a sign to create a topic on that. Do you often see these? Offering books, manuals, guidelines on how to acquire and learn a language the quickest way possible? Have you ever purchased a service or an e-book or an offered cd like that? Did you ever gave into the temptation to get a help like this? If yes, what was your experience?
I ran into this article, looking for online advertisements on quick language learning. It incorporates basic rules or guidelines on how to really learn quickest while mainly self-studying.
I would also include www.languagetools.io in the list of legitimate sites from where you can learn :)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/how-to-learn-a-language-in-super-fast-time/
"Of course, each student benefits from different approaches, but the best thing is to aim for this repeated exposure to the language you are trying to learn, and engaging in regular speaking practice sessions with a native speaker"
I was once told repetition is the mother of knowledge, and that is why I cited this quote. I agree with that so much. What do you think? What is the best method to acquire a language?
And from that standpoint, have you ever consulted a polyglot for advices on how to do learn quickest? Or maybe purchased one of their books and guidelines advertised online?
I myself have not, I even checked the guy mentioned in the advertisement as an alleged superpolyglot. He turned out to be some fictional character in a TV series :))
What do you think?
Can you add for work? That would be my choice, but wouldn't know how to add, from phone at least not
haha you're cool. No far, it's slightly easy for me because I have the ear for music and it is trained since early childhood, so it may be slightly easier to acquire languages, otherwise we all have it and as long as you enjoy what you do, you will excel
I think yes, if you leave the French aside a bit :)))
I know French way better than Spanish, I am currently studying Spanish, French I studied at the faculty
yes, i find them very similar myself
When we studied the craft of translation, I remember being introduced to metaphrase and paraphrase, as techniques in translation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphrase.
Metaphrase is a word by word translation, literal translation, while a paraphrase is using different words to convey a message. However it is, the literal translation can sometimes be used in specialized, technological translations, but the translator needs to be very familiar with the technical terminology and hence effectively pierce through the meaning of the sentence/segment and produce a reliable translation. However, successful and professional translators nowadays never use metaphrase only, since it is really amateur and not professional. It is exactly when you lose the valence of the intended message, "valence" being a word here I had to make a thorough research on and still don't understand why and in what context you used it here.
The literal translation is a superficial translation, very inapt, but useful too, and that fact is commonly familiar so it is prevalently important to understand the meaning and context of the message and rather convert THAT into another language, to pierce through what is being said and the emotions and thoughts behind it, and deliver a credible translation, WITH the same respective register in the target language. If you want to play with words on the other hand, sure, use literal translation and see how the whole meaning change, since a word has many different meanings and translations depending on the context. I am talking about written translations here most of the time. Translations of litterature, especially poetry, is especially subject to misconceptions and mistakes in translation.
On the other side, the consecutive and simultaneous techniques of translation/interpretation, can sometimes succumb to literal translation, since you are been asked to make instant translation and if the translator is not well prepared, or has simply missed something, he or she can lose themselves in translation. But when one is not finding the equivalent word for the given context while interpreting, paraphrasing is always recommended over omitting that sentence/message or using a calque ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque ) or a inventing your own loanword (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword ). I am referring to professional translations here and higher level of knowledge of a language. That's what I have learned.
https://www.fluentin3months.com/a2-level/
According to the European Common Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR), the levels of learning a language are the following:
A1 Beginner
A2 Upper Beginner
B1 Lower intermediate
B2 Upper intermediate
C1 Advanced
C2 Mastery
However this chart can be a bit misleading and cause you to agitate around aiming the higher ones always. The article above is so helpful and supportive, that it gives you a boost and encouragement to really look one step at a time and celebrate every level you attain! And by celebration it means taking the time to practice and settle in what you have acquired, really feel the contempt and move forward if, and when, you feel ready.
The A2 level can be as fulfilling as some of the higher levels too, and really gives you the opportunity to engage in basic conversations and maybe listen and learn more than speak. The article explains every situation and handling it with more details. In addition, with a patient partner, you can always feel more at ease and also evaluate more objectively your level and be happy about it.
What do you think? Should we aim successively or are you capable of sliding to the higher levels quickly and prefer that?
Salam! :):)
Здраво, - Zdravo :)) :blush:
Well besides your main interest being which accent we like of non native English speakers speaking English, I'd go with Australian and the Kiwi's. I think I like how loud and carefree (at least they seem to be) they are too :)) From the people I have interacted with.
Otherwise keeping your authentic accent when learning a foreign language is always interesting and many times involuntary. Some people just don't have the easiest time blending their pronunciation, articulation and sounds with the language they are learning. And I believe it needs lots of active listening to the language they are learning, maybe some form of specific focus, like focus on how the fluency sounds to us, like when we are listening to music, so not lending an extreme focus on the words and meaning, rather the sounding. Also lots of practice of this, if you want to acquire the authentic accent, and not seem like an obvious second language learner.
But anyhow, it's awesome to sound differently than the native speakers, if you own it, it wouldn't look embarrassing or stand out, or whatever you might think it sounds like. I think the accent comes naturally with the construction of words and the corresponding alphabet, symbols etc., as well as maybe the values the culture is based on. Like for example, the Italian is so extroverted and unique, but for example the climate and other circumstances have made the people like that, so the accent and sounds just appeared naturally. Going bit off topic, tried to understand, but that is how I see it.
I just posted a similar topic, on idioms! Did you see it?
Maybe you can post your expanded opinion there.
I personally think they are amazing, but they do of course confuse a new language learner, it's an advanced level of the language, similar to metaphors, there's no other way but to learn them by heart, or make some unrelatable association to the words with the meaning of the whole. But I do love them and they are a sign of the richness of the language and the creative impulses of the people to me. The tone of the message though makes a difference and can leave an impression the person using them is bragging, trying to be annoying, or doesn't even want to have a discussion with you, so is pushing you away by using whatever language/register you wouldn't understand or giving away an image of having higher level of knowledge of the language, hence him/herself being more competent than you, so you find them bragging and eventually leave. Or you yourself/ anyone for that matter may feel inferior around someone using idioms, when as a second language learner, you can't be as proficient in them as a native speaker. But you can always ask. If you are genuinely interested in the language and learning, you will always be brave enough to show you don't know and would like to learn. You won't be even concerned with showing it or not, you will simply ask. People respect that.
In the topic I created, there is a link to examples of it too, and a broader explanation of what they do and what they are.
But personally, I think we as second language learners, I believe we have an advantage, meaning you can choose which idioms you like best, and when you use them, you won't even be concerned with whether you leave a good impression or not, you simply love using them, so it leaves an impression of owning your own preferences and having the level of the language YOU desire to have, and not what others tell you or think you should have or not.
But I think idioms are awesome and a great indicator or how rich a language and its culture is. But I wouldn't learn all of them, and I don't find all relatable to my own experience, some are very authentic to the culture they were invented in, so if anything, harder to remember.
Great talk, thanks! I agree with all, and she's using great quotations
:) Thanks!
Hi! The last time I started learning a new language, I used the method of language exchange via Skype. I found the offer in a rather unusual place, as I still wasn't taking any firm initiative to learn it, so wasn't even aware that there are sites/sections designated just for that on the web. So I found the girl for Spanish and the boy for Arabic, on Couchsurfing, in a group for a language exchange. Otherwise, I also like learning alone, and that I do by listening a lot, I love voices and acting so that is my main point of interest. I love reading too, I just usually consult an acquaintance/friend from the country which sites are most popular or more objective on the national or international news in the language I am studying, and I read from those places. I am familiar with Spanish since little, so it's not very hard for me to read and enjoy in it.
Tutor is a great idea too, because you can never replace guidance, or company for that matter. But I myself can not pay for it at the moment so I turn to other means.
I studied French and English at the faculty (although main subject was interpretation and translation) and in high school too, so I believe it is possible to learn two languages at the same time. You just really shouldn't question a lot, doubt a lot, just rather go with the flow and not worry what you are retaining and/or how much. At some point you will evaluate and see if that is/was working.
My native is also a Slavic language, so it has nothing to do with the Romance languages that I was learning. So, I am not sure.. It is supposed to be seen as more difficult, but if you don't question it a lot, but have the desire only to learn both at the same time, going with the flow is easier way to release resistance and acquire the best of both. However maybe group learning is better when learning two languages from scratch at the same time. I strongly adhere to that. Company takes our minds off the fact how are brain and personalities switch while learning two languages or more simultaneously.
But any time you have difficulties, you can always choose to stick to one only.
That's what I think :)
Yeah but also of you want blend easier, with the people, it's very useful, don't you think so? I mean if you are about to reside in the country for a while ago
Idioms are groups of words that explored separately have different meaning, than when put together, and form an idiom! An idiom conveys a figurative meaning, and exploring the words individually wouldn't give you the meaning the idiom does. All cultures and languages have phrases like these that convey certain advices, wise thoughts and attitudes, that can also tell you a lot about the cultural preferences and values. Usually native speakers use them frequently, so it's important to get familiar with at least the most commonly used idioms in the society you want to reside, in order to merge easily and understand the native people. Idioms can also be so debilitating to language learners because as I said, given the words separately have a different meaning, it's not so easy to remember the idioms by heart, and also many conversations can lead to confusions because if you take them literally, they can sound illogical and irrealistic.
http://www.smart-words.org/quotes-sayings/idioms-meaning.html
"I don't like when people judge the book by its cover."
However, many times foreigners learning the language would believe anything, so they might also believe that what they assumed the construct of words was about, is correct. So it's advisable and also can be very amusing to many people, to check for these kind of intricacies of a culture when learning a new language.
What do You think? Do you recognize any of the idioms mentioned on the page I shared? How do you like them? Is it hard for you to learn idioms? Or you like getting into and memorising expressions like that in a language ?
Hahaha hilarious
I think it might also be a reflection of the dynamic in a society, the general tempo of affairs. I didn't recognize the last three for example from the ones you mentioned, but it might also be concerned with that, like going straight to the point yes, not to waste time. But it's just a perception, and a certain collective desire for organising stuff. Southern cultures are more relaxed, so maybe that also relates to the reason why there are so many abbreviations in the English language or in the US. And English is almost a global language, so depending on the topic, it needs to contain abbreviations to deliver a message. That's my opinion.
Yeah! Very good point, agree totally
I sometimes see it as quality Vs quantity, it depends on what attracts you most, want you want to focus on and improve. Syntax refers to the grammatical structure and validity, while semantics is concerned with the meaning of the symbols, words etc. So if you want to enrich your vocabulary, you look for synonyms/antonyms, but consequently, I have especially noticed in the English language, since it has such a rich vocabulary (correct me if I'm wrong), the context of the sentence/message matters so much, that you can't avoid semantics even if you wanted to. Because it does give a totally different advanced flavor to the message, when you focus on the semantics. So really it's about how your brain functions and how analytical it is. If it is more analytical/mathematical in a way, go with syntax, if it is more artistic, go with semantics. And the moment you get satisfied, the moment you feel happy with how satisfied your brain is :)) go to the other chapter, the other side, and you will confirm how fun that can be too.
Both are important to me if you want to acquire a good knowledge of the language, but your personal preferences are another thing. Quality Vs quantity, that's how I see it. I myself can't divide it, because I've seen how good both go together, so as I said both are important to me. But if you struggle, just go with what attracts you most.
That's what I would say :)
:pray:
Yes Leo, I agree with that too! Thank you for adding that conclusion or suggestion from the article
:hand:
Have you ever heard about this? When a native and a foreigner communicate, but both want to exercise the language they are learning, so the guest in the native country tries to exercise its Chinese in China, while the Chinese wants to exercise his/her English with the American guest. It can be such a drain.
I learned so much from this article/blog post.
http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2010/05/18/language-power-struggles
And the points shared bellow are awesome too. This is the case.
A language power struggle appears when you want to exercise the language you're studying with a local person in the country of origin. But the other person, also wants to practice his/her learning language with a native speaker (you). However, in many states, this struggle can be so intense, because both parties do not let loose and give up. Natives usually tend to exercise their English for example with native English speakers. It can sometimes be a case of a social prestige (in India for example Indians prefer talking in English with English people apparently sometimes as a sign of higher education and status, so of course they are going to prefer to practice and brag with THAT language), or how much pride someone takes in his/her own language (even in my case, when foreigners used to want to practice Macedonian with me, or just telling me they are studying it, I always replied with "Why the heck would you do/need that..." . I understand their will now though and even though it's not spoken almost anywhere but here :)), I offer help).
There are also two points taken into consideration when there is an issue of finding a common language when two language learners are conversing. Are we going to focus on efficiency of communication, or on practice. That's why it is beneficial to find someone who would do language exchange with you, rather than trying to enforce your language of practice on native speakers who are not there for that. The topics, ambient, reasons for being in a certain place and a certain time, are also relevant to the intentions of communication both parties have. So, in my opinion, you can not expect a Chinese waiter for example to lend you his/her fluent Chinese and corrections to your poor Chinese in a restaurant where you came to eat (while you're an American and the waiter does converse in English), and not practice your Chinese. A Chinese waiter isn't supposed to also expect to exercise or demonstrate his/her poor English when taking an order from a native English speaker guest in the restaurant (when the guest speaks Chinese, no matter the level).
I believe usually men or male's energy tries to enforce his/her learning language, it's that energy that raises the language power struggle (or whatever power struggle for that matter). I believe women or female's energy is more allowing and focuses on the exchange of content, rather than dominance in knowing a language (or just the urgent need to practice your language). Not that anyone is better or worse! I love power struggles sometimes myself, it can be fun to see how much one desires to have his/her own need to practice the language in question in this case, placed as one's priority.
I find this article great, I encourage you to read it. It's part of the study of sociolinguistics. And PLEASE share if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on it whatsoever! I would really like to know
Thanks!
Mai
Ok, but why would empathy be a side effect? Empathy is more like feeling into the other. If your head reacts, that might be sympathy, and if there's a headache, you are resisting the call of sympathy.
Anyway, I think these side effects apply to similar languages with similar alphabet. I never confuse my language with English or French, but I do confuse French with Spanish, a lot, especially at the beginning. But my native language is made of the Cyrillic alphabet, so I can forget about a word in Macedonian and find it in English, but I am never mixing both of them. Or my native tongue never changes, it's way too different. It just gives me more will to enrich my own language. But of course learning languages can make a mess in your head, but I guess it's usually at the beginning. And really knowing your purpose for learning and using a certain language will give you way more clarity and direction. That's how I find this.
Hey Chill, I'm sorry to hear that. I often consult this site on metaphysical reasons , i.e. emotional and mental reasons (which are btw the roots of all illnesses) behind states, conditions, illnesses. Please check under Speech, you will find the condition of delayed speech. Good luck getting additionally informed afterwards. I encourage you to trust it and get further informed, in order to tackle the issue at its core when there is still time.
http://www.ourspiritualnutrition.com/is05.htm#Our_Spiritual_Nutrition.
Best,
Yeah, agree, but one word for a whole page?! :D why so?
Hi!
Have you noticed if they have a specific interest in something else? If you spot the talent, it's easier for a parent to understand where the child is standing, and give the tools it needs to potentially develop the talent.
Otherwise, if they are just rebellious, from a metaphysical and psychological perspective they are demonstrating a side of you that you
(the parent) have pushed away inside of yourself (him/herself). If you want a sustainable and lasting change, you have to tackle the core of all issues, if you want to move on the surface, I would say the following.
There are many particular interests that a specific kid is attracted by. They are individuals too thankfully and they have they own desires, needs, and similar, so if you spot the thing that interests them, you can incorporate that activity, or technique, in the process of studying a language. For example, if the kid likes/prefers watching TV, (which may or may not be a sign of a not really healthy kid, or just its expression), you can play movies in the language you'd like them to learn. Or children prefer playing with dolls, you can introduce an exercise where you use dolls and they are interacting in the language you'd like the children to learn. It's sort of a manipulative way to make the learn, but that is not what we want to accomplish, rather make them feel happy and present, therefore acquire maybe even more when learning a new language, or whatever for that matter. You can introduce exercises that they enjoy, but if the kids are not saying for themselves what they like and/or dislike, which is something good to be taught too (usually by having the parent openly saying what he or she would like from the partner, in front of the children, as a demonstration of an open and honest relationship), but if they are not saying for themselves, you need to observe, and see what interests them, attracts their attention the most, and potentially apply that in the course.
Otherwise, if you tried with one teacher, maybe the teacher sucks (to them), try changing it, something more pedagogically adept.
You can specify if you want here what do you feel/think the issue is, and I'll try to help more
Best,
Mai
Hi! Why would I empathize with English language learners I'm sorry? Do you mean if your native language is English or?
Hey Aricandy, thank you so much for this direct experience! It's usually the most useful
Thank you!
Hi guys!
What are you favourite exercises in the process of learning a language?
Is it grammar exercises? Listening and paraphrasing/narration exercises? Speaking/conversational exercises? Do you prefer homework and why? (For example you prefer working alone so you can focus better, or because you feel you embarrass yourself often with the teacher, or, what else?)
Do you like homework anyway?
Do you like dictation exercises? What do you think about those? How do they help us while learning a new language?
Is it maybe your favourite exercise describing images? You prefer verbalising it or writing it down? Or mentally creating your own images and/or describing your day? And why, if yes, or no.
How do you feel about repetition of words and learning new words? Is enriching your vocabulary the most interesting and/or important to you?
How about the ones where you link the images with the words? Or the grammar ones, filling in the gap in sentences? I love that one
Or what's your favourite part in the grammar rules? Conjugation, tenses, syntax or morphology?
https://www.uni-due.de/SHE/REV_MorphologySyntax.htm.
Please complement me and add some that I can't remember at the moment
I myself I like constructing sentences with the new words and I can't live without repetition. I need everything to be repeated before we continue to the next lesson, or we need to incorporate whatever previously learned to the new one. I like words and dictation. I love deciphering the spelling of words. At a certain intermediate level of course.
Grammar, not a big fan :)) (like most of us here maybe)
I also love homework. Reminds me of what we have been studying and gives me an opportunity to prove myself (to myself and/or the teacher) that i am trustworthy, hardworking and dedicated. Or if I don't do it, it proves the opposite :))) for the time being :)
Thank you!
This is not even a reliable or trustworthy source Leo, I gave above scientific reason why children's brain absorb way easily whatever they start learning, and they/we learn all the time, since they are a tabula rasa. Are you competing with children or what? Do you feel a need to compete with their capacities or?
Cheers
